Emmanuel: Hello everyone! Thank you for tuning into our podcast today. My name is Emmanuel and joining me today are Abigail, Weihan, and Yun. Today we will be talking about how Disney Films, specifically the MCU contributes to the social construction of our values, perception of gender, and acceptable gender roles?
Emmanuel: Before we begin this podcast, a fun brief question so the viewers can get to know you all better, “Who is your favorite Marvel character?”
Yun: Iron-Man because it is my first Disney film that I watched.
Abigail: Hulk because the back story how he be
Weihan: Spider because he is so young.
Emmanuel: For me is Black Widow with the different socio-cultural changes.
Emmanuel: I really think that all the characters that you mentioned would be amazing to talk about, but whom do you think we should talk about today?
Abigail: We are here to talk about how the gender roles and values played in the Disney superhero films. For today’s discussion, the films that we are going to talk about The Avenger and Avenger: Endgame (The films are undecided and we should talk about which film we decide to talk about) (1 min)
Emmanuel: What are the kind values that you guys discovered in the films?
Response from other speakers:
The possible response is: independent, great responsibilities, (3 mins)
Yun: So what are the characters that we want to focus to talk about? We should pick a female and male character that has a clear vision about the gender role that they play in the film. (1 min)
Weihan: How about Tony Stark AKA Iron-Man and Natasha Romanova AKA Black Widow? (1 min)
Emmanuel, Yun, and Abigail: Sure.
Abigail: So let’s start by talking about which scene in the film you guys think can represent the gender role that Tony and Natasha showing and what kind of gender value that they are showing to the audience? Does anyone want to go first? (1 min)
Have a brief background about Iron-Man and Black Widow
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Emmanuel: How about let’s talk about Black Widow first? Who wants to volunteer to start this?
Abigail: I can go first. The first thing that I am going to talk about is the social gender norms that Black Window defined in the films. In the first Avengers movie, Black Widow really shows her fighting ability. An example of this is when she learns Agent Barton is in trouble while she’s in an interrogation with some Russian military guys. She takes down four guys showing her strength, agility, and combat skills that aren’t traditionally thought of as traits for women. I also remember a time later in the movie when she is talking with Loki. In the scene, it looks like Loki is breaking her down but she is really using her manipulation abilities and spy skills she was taught when she was younger to get what she wanted out of Loki. Then she walks away. She’s using her intelligence and spy capabilities to show how she is different from traditional gender norms.
Emmanuel: So what Abigail said about Black Widow it seems that she is important for the Avenger especially for Hulk.
Yun: I agree with what Abigail said and here is what I thought about Black Widow.
She is playing an important part besides a side character.
The first thing is she aimed at Hulk. In the Avenger films, no one can calm down Hulk’s emotions except her. For example, in Thor 3 film, when Thor and Hulk have the fight, Thor tries to do the same thing that Natasha did to Hulk but failed and swings and smashed; and when Hulk is mad at Thor that he did not take him with he, Thor pulls out the video that recorded by Natasha then makes Hulk back to Banner. So without her Hulk is not going to calm down and will just be an emotionless fighter.
The second thing is she is the support of the Avengers not physically but emotionally. I think she is the first one that treats Avengers as her family. In the Endgame she said to Captain America that she begins with nothing now she has your guys. That is the reason she does not lose anything from Thanos’ snapping, but she still supports the team and in the end sacrifices herself to get the soul stone. She is the spy and the most terrible thing for a spy to have is the weakness but she chooses and is willing to have Avenger as her weakness because she finds her home and family.
Lastly, she is about the same as other Avengers. Her long-time spy work gives her many experiments, such as reading others thoughts by detecting facial movements, fights, well using weapons and things around her, and independence. So if she is not important for the Avenger then why she will have her individual films.
So I like how the mood that Marvel sets up for the superheroes. They are showing the female can be an independent and strong woman along with great responsibility. However, when I read Maria Lewis’ article We Need To Talk About Black Widow’s Treatment in ‘Avenger: Endgame’It also makes me think about one thing which I am confused about is: If Black Widow is important for the Avenger team or the Avenger family, but why does she not get a funeral?
Emmanuel: Does anyone want to add what you thought about Black Widow?
Abigail: I would like to talk about how Black Widow is a good representation of female empowerment. I think a good movie to showcase this is Avengers: Endgame. When Barton and she are finding the soul stone and realize there needs to be a sacrifice to get the stone they fight each other because they don’t want the other to die. This scene is a very powerful scene; Natasha cares so deeply for Barton that she's willing to sacrifice her life, but she also feels it's her duty to do so because of all the harm she has caused others. Sacrificing herself would be like repaying her debt to society. This shows bravery, strength, admiration, courage, and awareness of one's actions. Though this is a tough scene she is displaying traits that will influence a new norm for women. But empowering women isn’t just about establishing a new idea of them, it’s also about showing current characteristics associated with women benefit not something to be ashamed of. When she is caring for Barton after he was realized from Loki’s spell she is showing compassion and a typical model of a woman, as a caretaker. But just because it’s traditional doesn’t mean it should be bad or women shouldn’t want to be thought of as compassionate.
Emmanuel: The last call, everyone wants to add what Abigail said, if not we are moving on to Iron-Man, but feel free to jump in and talk about what you want to say about Black Widow. So I don’t know how you guys feel about the character Iron-Man and the personality that shows. I feel pretty bad for him because the way he acts makes me feel uncomfortable.
Abigail: You mean he has been toxic masculinity to the female characters in the film?
Emmanuel: Exactly!!
Yun: So you wanna talk a little more about how Iron-Man has toxic masculinity?
Emmanuel: Sure. The first question that I want to ask about Iron-Man would be, How is Tony Stark a representation of toxic Masculinity?
Emmanuel: I do believe that Tony Stark is a good representation of Toxic masculinity because he is introduced as a person who has an ego, does not care about anyone else, and believes he is better than anyone else. Those are some characteristics of toxic masculinity but even the way he talks about himself goes further to interpret this idea. Even in the first Avengers, Tony has a hard time working with the others and that is shown when there is this instant outbreak of anger which turns into fighting. Even so, his own challengers have created a character that is emotionally unstable and thus he does not seem to want to talk about his feelings at all in the first two Iron man movies.
Abigail: I completely agree with you, Tony Stark's past has made him the man he is.
Emmanuel: Now that we have talked about Tony Stark's introduction to the MCU, How has he progressed as a character that symbolized Toxic Masculinity to becoming a male superhero model?
Yun: I think Iron-Man has changed so much from the beginning through the end. I agree with what Manny said that he has been toxic masculinity at the beginning, but he made progress to be a role model.
Emmanuel: How is that happening?
Yun: This is what I think. Just as Tony Stark responded to what Steve Roger said, what are you without the suit in The Avenger film? In the beginning, Tony is a Genius, billionaire, playboy, and philanthropist, so at that time he does not have that strong responsibility along with the suit because for himself the suit is his lifesaver from the palladium poisoning. In the Iron-Man 2 film, we definitely can see Tony has been toxic masculine to Natasha(when she is spying on Tony) and with tons of parties, but in the later films, there are fewer parties show up and the last party that I can remember is in the Avenger 2 movie. But even with this party, Tony is more likely to hang out with his Avengers team, not hot girls and models.
The first time that Tony acted in a role is in The Avenger film that he sent the bomb to outer space to destroy the enemies. His last phone call(he thinks) is called Pepper, so at that moment I really think that he is changing and becoming more human than at any other time. This can be implied in the Avenger: Endgame. Throughout these Avenger films really make the progression of Iron-Man’s characteristics pop out. I remember I showed my friend( who has not seen any Marvel superhero films) the clip of Tony’s five years of village life with Pepper(his wife) and Morgen(his daughter) and Iron-Man 1’s Iron-Man. She was questioning that “is this really the same person?” Just as what Matt Cates said in Masculinity, Marvel Style about the Iron-Man character and how it is played in the MCU.
So overall, I think all the characters that played in the Marvel superhero films are represented as a social norm. Connect to Yvonne Skipper’s article Avengers Endgame: how the Marvel Universe helps children (and adults) understand the world around them There are some characters that in the films are role models for their audience and even can teach kids the right thing to do, such as Captain America. The family background and friend relationships for most characters in the film are not great such as Tony Stark he said he is a difficult person to deal with that is volatile and self-obsessed. But they eventually went through it and changed themselves. Therefore, I think Iron-Man represents more social norms that show in the film than other characters.
Emmanuel: Everyone has other thoughts on what Yun said?
Emmanuel: So from what you said about Iron-Man I notice you talking about the relationship with Pepper Pots where I want to briefly talk about how I think about the relationship between the two characters.
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Emmanuel: After talking about these two different characters, we are coming into our last segment which I have one more question for everyone, out of these two characters, whom do you think portrays a more acceptable cultural norm?
Weihan: After listening to your opinions on Iron Man, I think I have to talk about Spiderman. As the youngest one of the superheroes, sometimes he often makes improper actions. For example, in the film Spiderman: Homecoming, At that time, after Peter Parker got the suit given to him by Iron Man, he eagerly stopped the villain’s weapon trade on the ferry, and caused a serious accident. Fortunately, Iron Man came to the rescue in time so that all passengers could be saved. After that, Tony denounced Peter:” What if someone dies? Then it’s because of you. But if you die...I think it is because of me.” We can see that Tony cares very much about Peter, the relationship between them can be said, like father and son. From the moment this sense of responsibility was born, Tony will never be a playboy. It is the appearance of Peter Parker that further strengthens Tony’s masculine charm, as a father. This is what I think Disney wants to show us, the process of evolving from an impetuous young person to a “perfect male”. And this is also Disney’s definition of male values I think.
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Emmanuel: This is where we are going to wrap this segment today, I think all of you did a good job interpreting how Black Widow does not only defy social norms but is a symbol of female empowerment and Iron man further development throughout his time in the MCU, thank you for joining our podcast for today and I hope all of you enjoyed our topic for today.